What I expect on Update3

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Re: What I expect on Update3

Postby samo79 » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:48 pm

Hans-Joerg Frieden wrote:The reason why a lot of crashes end up in a deadlock is known to us and is something we'll be looking at.


Nice read :)
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Re: What I expect on Update3

Postby Mrodfr » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:41 am

Hello,

Another point I need on Update3 is to add or remove easily my externals 2.5" Harddrives.

My external HD drives are PowerOver-SATA drive SFS formatted. They work fine but I must reboot the amiga for the recognition on the HD on the Workbench :-\

I do that often because I have 3 external HDS.


- Automatic recognition of PowerOverSATA HD drives are planned on Update3 ?

- If not,there is a method to do that easily allready ?

bye
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Re: What I expect on Update3

Postby abalaban » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:40 am

Hans-Joerg Frieden wrote:gdb and addr2line are developer tools, and completely useless if the binary doesn't contain debug info (which is true for almost any released software), so adding them to anything but the SDK isn't really making much sense :)


I already tried many times to explain that to Mrodfr but he does not seem to understand.
Moreover as a programmer current debug outputs are sufficient to make me spot the problem in general. The problem is that Mrodfr often beta-tests 68k softwares or 68k crosscompiled ones, meaning that developers he's sending his output does not know what a GrimReaper log is or how to use it (for this last I feel like it's more a matter of laziness or even in some cases bad faith (not sure of this expression in english).

However for executable with debug info having addr2line integrated into GrimReaper would be a great gain of time, but I suspect addr2line only works with programs generated by GCC build chain, doesn't it ?
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Re: What I expect on Update3

Postby Thomas Frieden » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:48 am

abalaban wrote:However for executable with debug info having addr2line integrated into GrimReaper would be a great gain of time, but I suspect addr2line only works with programs generated by GCC build chain, doesn't it ?


We have a half-finished draft for a new library to help debugging stuff (basically, a debugger in a shared library) that would be possible to integrate into Grim Reaper. Unfortunately, the actual implementation won't start for some time due to workload and time constraints.
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Re: What I expect on Update3

Postby kas1e » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:55 am

@Hans
gdb and addr2line are developer tools, and completely useless if the binary doesn't contain debug info


Just small note which will make not big sense, but : gdb still can be helpfull even if binary not have debug info. I.e. if programmer just briefly know assembler, he still can (even without debug info), check where on assembler instructions crash happens, and if it store registers he will think in one way, if it load registers, he will think about others. Or even maybe he will see that crash happens in "prologue" function, so he will think about other. And i just do not remember from top of head more examples, but only know that even without debug gdb can be helpfull. Its has so many features (like dumping of hex-data by address, disassebling of need it area, and so on) , that even without debug info it still very good to have. So maybe have it in the main os4 release can make a sense (at last GR have button to attach to GDB). But not big deal of course, any sane programmer install SDK always..

@Thomas
We have a half-finished draft for a new library to help debugging stuff (basically, a debugger in a shared library)


Can you say more about ? Did it something done from scratch, or based on GDB sources ? Maybe you even can release it without integration to GR, just with some small API set, so 3d party developers can just make a gui for. What current library can do ? (and what you still want to implement) ?
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Re: What I expect on Update3

Postby abalaban » Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:23 am

Thomas Frieden wrote:We have a half-finished draft for a new library to help debugging stuff (basically, a debugger in a shared library) that would be possible to integrate into Grim Reaper. Unfortunately, the actual implementation won't start for some time due to workload and time constraints.


That's good news for sure. I hope you'll find some time to implement this. Better development tools are always a good thing :D
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Re: What I expect on Update3

Postby Mrodfr » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:57 pm

I already tried many times to explain that to Mrodfr but he does not seem to understand.
Moreover as a programmer current debug outputs are sufficient to make me spot the problem in general. The problem is that Mrodfr often beta-tests 68k softwares or 68k crosscompiled ones, meaning that developers he's sending his output does not know what a GrimReaper log is or how to use it (for this last I feel like it's more a matter of laziness or even in some cases bad faith (not sure of this expression in english).


I haven't tested 68k programs since 1.5 years. Programs tested here are mainly Linux ported to AOS4 program (comand line program) or allready AOS4 program in new beta version.

Unfortunately, even with the DSI, the programmer sometime failed to found where the problem are located on the sourcecode.

This is why I really would like improvements on the debug method on AOS4.

- By improving the DSI log by itself or linking addr2line and GDB more friendly.
- By also never have freezed Amiga-NG when problem came and allways as result a DSI (the most important point IMHO).
- As a verry great news, as Thomas Frieden has explained, and I'm sure make the programmers happy ;-)
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Re: What I expect on Update3

Postby afxgroup » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:54 pm

you could be sure to find the source code line only if the program is compiled with -gstabs and not with -g. And of course it must not be stripped.
If it is compiled with -gstabs you can finde the source code line without any problems. Also if it is a macro in an include file for example
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Re: What I expect on Update3

Postby abalaban » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:39 pm

Mrodfr wrote:I haven't tested 68k programs since 1.5 years. Programs tested here are mainly Linux ported to AOS4 program (comand line program) or allready AOS4 program in new beta version.

Unfortunately, even with the DSI, the programmer sometime failed to found where the problem are located on the sourcecode.


And mainly it's because the programmer is cross-compiling for AOS4, does not own an AOS4 capable machine and does not care so much about it. Anyway as afxgroup said above if the program is compiled with correct GCC debug command-line and not stripped, you can always spot the line were the crash comes from. Somethimes the crash is in a system function but then you only have to backtrack to latest programmer's line and you have the guilty line (in such case it's often due to bad parameters).

Nevermind we already had this discussion. For myself I think that if a programmer can't really test/debug by himself on a system then he should not pretend to support it, that's the reason why when I release a program it's AOS4 only.
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Re: What I expect on Update3

Postby Mrodfr » Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:27 pm

Hello,

Thanks sharing the informations with us about planned debug improvments on AOS4 like:

- The actual work on the freeze when a program crash. I hope that will give in the futur allways DSI when a crash came. This is a too painfull problem for all users when the problme came :-\


- For the work on a new debugger on a library (as explained previously). I'm sure this will be much better than my addr2line and GDB idea on integration inside the AOS or on the Grim reaper window (I have just that as solution when I have posted my suggestion).


- Maybe new GDB and the new library for using alkfil db101 correctly in the meanwhile.

Surely like that reported DSI will be clear for the programmer all the time ;-)
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