Way to increase Zorro 3 autoconfig address space?

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Calgor
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Re: Way to increase Zorro 3 autoconfig address space?

Post by Calgor »

@ Hanzu

For your question on how big the gap is (that is "wasted"), from my earlier post:
Calgor wrote:Is anyone from Hyperion able to shed any light on my 3 questions?

I may have found the answer to number 3 from the RKRM Hardware Manual (1989) in the Section on AutoConfig:

"The AUTOCONFIG spec requires that boards be configured on boundaries that match their space requirements."
It then goes on to list examples for 1MB boards and 4MB boards in Zorro 2.

But this is for Zorro 2. The later OS2.x RKRM I could not find any mention of this for Zorro 3 or even Zorro 2.
And it also does not say whether it is the OS (i.e. expansion.library) or the card that can determine this.
In this case ZoRAM is configured to use 256MB, so the start address of its memory use would be a multiple of 256MB. Using broad numbers as an example, say the next available Z3 address space was 1.1GB - the ZorRAM memory would start at 1.25GB thereby wasting the memory between 1.1-1.25GB so that it could start at the next .25GB (256MB) multiple. I am not aware that this unused memory is actually used for anything.

Taking the Radeon card out of your setup will not make any more address space for Zorro3 available fo your PicassoIV unless you also reduce the address space use of the Mediator to change it from 512MB to 256MB window. I expect it would work if you did change the jumper, and you can confirm any address space problems by running the showconfig command as earlier in this thread. As you said, it is not related to OS4.1 - the system not being able to boot is due to Kickstart 3.1 and its autoconfig which is utilised earlier. What OS4.1 does force you to have is the 512MB mediator window for the 256MB radeon.

If ZorRAM is shown as being defective, it could be there is not enough autoconfig space, or you have an old ZorRAM and an old Buster rev (AmigaKit should be able to confim this for your ZorRAM, I cannot remember the scenarios).

Suggestion: If you can get PicassoIV by itself and Mediator without ZorRAM and then run showconfig commmand we can predict what address space issues you may encounter. Note that as I do not have the desktop Mediator version there could be some PicassoIV problems with that that I am unaware of.

Use of PicassoIV compared with Indivision MKII is that it can perform higher refresh rates (like 150Hz PAL), and it has interlace flicker selectable in its early boot menu. In addition you can use it as an extra graphics card with multiple monitors. Also as in my case, you can have the 3 addon boards for tv tuner, video in/out, 16 bit sound in/out.
Amiga 4000T: CSPPC 604e@233/060@50 146MB RAM/CVPPC/Mediator/Radeon 256MB/Realtek 8029AS/TerraTec Solo1-N/Picasso IV (Paloma Pablo Concierto)/Deneb/ZorRAM 256MB/Indivision AGA MKII/OS4.xBETA/OS4.1u4/OS3.9BB2
AmigaONE X1000: Nemo 2.1 PA6T-1682M@1.8 2GB RAM/Radeon HD 4770 512MB/Catweasel MK4+/Audigy 2 ZS/Realtek 8139D/OS4.xBETA/OS4.1u5
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Re: Way to increase Zorro 3 autoconfig address space?

Post by Hanzu »

Calgor wrote: In this case ZoRAM is configured to use 256MB, so the start address of its memory use would be a multiple of 256MB. Using broad numbers as an example, say the next available Z3 address space was 1.1GB - the ZorRAM memory would start at 1.25GB thereby wasting the memory between 1.1-1.25GB so that it could start at the next .25GB (256MB) multiple. I am not aware that this unused memory is actually used for anything.
If unused memory somewhere between 1.1-1.25GB is about 256MB size, it reminds me of maximum memory of Blizzard PPC. Just a co-incidence probably though.
Taking the Radeon card out of your setup will not make any more address space for Zorro3 available fo your PicassoIV unless you also reduce the address space use of the Mediator to change it from 512MB to 256MB window. I expect it would work if you did change the jumper, and you can confirm any address space problems by running the showconfig command as earlier in this thread. As you said, it is not related to OS4.1 - the system not being able to boot is due to Kickstart 3.1 and its autoconfig which is utilised earlier. What OS4.1 does force you to have is the 512MB mediator window for the 256MB radeon.
So did I undestand right that I would have to either get Radeon 9250 128MB or remove Mediator windows jumper to make it allocate less memory for PCI slots, but would PCI soundcard or PCI network card then ran out of memory with their small memory need?
If ZorRAM is shown as being defective, it could be there is not enough autoconfig space, or you have an old ZorRAM and an old Buster rev (AmigaKit should be able to confim this for your ZorRAM, I cannot remember the scenarios).
Super Buster is Rev 11 and ZorRAM 256MB has a sticker for passing quality control test 11.12.2012. I assume their quality control has got quality enough to check that ZorRAM is sold with latest firmware, hopefully.
Suggestion: If you can get PicassoIV by itself and Mediator without ZorRAM and then run showconfig commmand we can predict what address space issues you may encounter. Note that as I do not have the desktop Mediator version there could be some PicassoIV problems with that that I am unaware of.
Thank you for your help. I will try to do some more research with 4.1 showconfig.
Use of PicassoIV compared with Indivision MKII is that it can perform higher refresh rates (like 150Hz PAL), and it has interlace flicker selectable in its early boot menu. In addition you can use it as an extra graphics card with multiple monitors. Also as in my case, you can have the 3 addon boards for tv tuner, video in/out, 16 bit sound in/out.
Lucky you. I doubt I will ever find any of those expansion modules for Picasso IV. Here in Finland is someone with A4000T packed with 4 Picasso IV cards to get multiple screens. :)

Offtopic: How do I get to Picasso IV BootMenu?! I have tried pressing and holding boths shifts and simultaneously too. P4FlashUpdate says it has latest 7.4 firmware and refuses to flash it again.
A4000cr Rev D+CSPPC 233/66MHz 060+16MB 50ns+128MB 60ns+Plextor SCSI-3 CDRW+Adaptec SCSI to SATA adapter+OCZ Vertex 2 SSD 90GB+Mediator 4000 MK II+Radeon 9250 256MB +RTL8029+Terratec TTSOLO1-SL VER1.2+ZorRAM 256MB+DF0:-DF3:+Catweasel MK2 Anniversary+Indivision AGA MK II+OS3.9 & OS 4.1. RTL8139D & Terratec TT801-QD for OS3.9 only
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Calgor
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Re: Way to increase Zorro 3 autoconfig address space?

Post by Calgor »

Hanzu wrote: So did I undestand right that I would have to either get Radeon 9250 128MB or remove Mediator windows jumper to make it allocate less memory for PCI slots, but would PCI soundcard or PCI network card then ran out of memory with their small memory need?

Offtopic: How do I get to Picasso IV BootMenu?! I have tried pressing and holding boths shifts and simultaneously too. P4FlashUpdate says it has latest 7.4 firmware and refuses to flash it again.
Radeon 128MB allows you to reduce the mediator winsize to 256MB. This *should* allow you to also use all of your other cards - I cannot guarantee as I have not looked at in detail the memory amount requirements for the different PCI cards. You can see how much they use in OS4.x showconfig or OS3.9 pciinfo mediator command. I would recommend you set the PicassoIV to Zorro2 mode via its jumper for now and see how you go with its reduced speed. I do not think you will use it that often as the Radeon would be the main used screen along with Indivision AGA MK2 for native screenmodes.

To get the PicassoIV boot menu, you need to repeatedly hit the shift key (either one I think) if you don't know exactly when to push it. Holding it down too early (or obviously too late) does not work.
Amiga 4000T: CSPPC 604e@233/060@50 146MB RAM/CVPPC/Mediator/Radeon 256MB/Realtek 8029AS/TerraTec Solo1-N/Picasso IV (Paloma Pablo Concierto)/Deneb/ZorRAM 256MB/Indivision AGA MKII/OS4.xBETA/OS4.1u4/OS3.9BB2
AmigaONE X1000: Nemo 2.1 PA6T-1682M@1.8 2GB RAM/Radeon HD 4770 512MB/Catweasel MK4+/Audigy 2 ZS/Realtek 8139D/OS4.xBETA/OS4.1u5
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Re: Way to increase Zorro 3 autoconfig address space?

Post by Belxjander »

My understanding of Zorro based on the Dave Haynie files released on Thule.no

Is that expansion.library is solely responsible for mapping expansions based on

CPU slot first,
Zorro wired order second,

All Z2 and Z3 cards are size bounded and "slot"s of 64KB as a minimum size...
BaseAddress assignments will always be the first found entry of a given size from an array of slots equal to the size

This is the behaviour I have seen on A3000 and A4000 desktops
Using Kickstarts v39.x and v40.(68/70)

So you have to break the address space into blocks of a given size and large allocations need to happen first

Is it possible to reorder the slots? As ConfigOut and ConfigIn lines are wired directly from one slot to the next
(A3000 A4000 desktop and tower schematics reveal this IIRC)

As the base address of the expansion address space changed
The only real way to del with this would be to patch an updated kickstart ROM to a new chip and work with your existing hw

Can you get and test if an A3000 SoftKickstart ROM would let you boot your A4000T with a modified SoftKickstart Image?

But I am only guessing as to how effective that may be...

Hopefully this helps with ordering all the cards to work

If anyone wants a copy of the above reference materials then Email me directly with a request and I'll forward a copy of the Thule.no release archive if it is problematic to download directly
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Re: Way to increase Zorro 3 autoconfig address space?

Post by Calgor »

Belxjander wrote: ...
So you have to break the address space into blocks of a given size and large allocations need to happen first

Is it possible to reorder the slots? As ConfigOut and ConfigIn lines are wired directly from one slot to the next
(A3000 A4000 desktop and tower schematics reveal this IIRC)

As the base address of the expansion address space changed
The only real way to del with this would be to patch an updated kickstart ROM to a new chip and work with your existing hw

Can you get and test if an A3000 SoftKickstart ROM would let you boot your A4000T with a modified SoftKickstart Image?
...
I think I have read those Haynie docs before. Not aware that the slots can be reordered, therefore you cannot guarantee that large allocations will happen first *Mediator does one very large and one very small in sequence). Wonder if a revised kickstart can override this ordering?

To change the base address (I am guessing here by "base address" you mean the start of Zorro 3 address space as that is the item in question in this thread?) - would need to change it in the Kickstart yes, but it would need to be changed in both OS3.1 kickstart and OS4.x kickstart for OS4.x to work with it. I do not have the knowledge on how to patch the kickstart 3.1 to do so, nor whether OS4.x will work with such a patch as the question on memory address space use is as yet unanswered). I can burn my own kickstarts with their own custom modules so a soft kickstart load is not necessary. As to whether the A3000 SoftKickstart ROM would work, I am not fully aware how that works (i.e. what it loads before loading the kickstart from the harddisk), so not sure how to go about testing that - if you have some links on how to and how it works?
Amiga 4000T: CSPPC 604e@233/060@50 146MB RAM/CVPPC/Mediator/Radeon 256MB/Realtek 8029AS/TerraTec Solo1-N/Picasso IV (Paloma Pablo Concierto)/Deneb/ZorRAM 256MB/Indivision AGA MKII/OS4.xBETA/OS4.1u4/OS3.9BB2
AmigaONE X1000: Nemo 2.1 PA6T-1682M@1.8 2GB RAM/Radeon HD 4770 512MB/Catweasel MK4+/Audigy 2 ZS/Realtek 8139D/OS4.xBETA/OS4.1u5
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Re: Way to increase Zorro 3 autoconfig address space?

Post by Belxjander »

Calgor wrote:
Belxjander wrote: ...
So you have to break the address space into blocks of a given size and large allocations need to happen first

Is it possible to reorder the slots? As ConfigOut and ConfigIn lines are wired directly from one slot to the next
(A3000 A4000 desktop and tower schematics reveal this IIRC)

As the base address of the expansion address space changed
The only real way to del with this would be to patch an updated kickstart ROM to a new chip and work with your existing hw

Can you get and test if an A3000 SoftKickstart ROM would let you boot your A4000T with a modified SoftKickstart Image?
...
I think I have read those Haynie docs before. Not aware that the slots can be reordered, therefore you cannot guarantee that large allocations will happen first *Mediator does one very large and one very small in sequence). Wonder if a revised kickstart can override this ordering?

To change the base address (I am guessing here by "base address" you mean the start of Zorro 3 address space as that is the item in question in this thread?) - would need to change it in the Kickstart yes, but it would need to be changed in both OS3.1 kickstart and OS4.x kickstart for OS4.x to work with it. I do not have the knowledge on how to patch the kickstart 3.1 to do so, nor whether OS4.x will work with such a patch as the question on memory address space use is as yet unanswered). I can burn my own kickstarts with their own custom modules so a soft kickstart load is not necessary. As to whether the A3000 SoftKickstart ROM would work, I am not fully aware how that works (i.e. what it loads before loading the kickstart from the harddisk), so not sure how to go about testing that - if you have some links on how to and how it works?
Slot reordering would entail cutting and jumpering the config in and out lines

And the BaseAddress is one of the Zorro AutoConfig register names too

Each card is given a Base Address during AutoConfig

Between configuration start triggered by config in until end when the card sets config out

The mediator appears as two autoconfig devices...
Which is what makes this annoying

As for the SoftKickstart that loads a minimal system and then reboots into a new Kickstart...

BlizKick or similar may help but the cards would still need to have re ordering options

Is there any way to put the ZorRAM before the mediator or after the pIV?

Other than that I am out of ideas and anything further would be blunt hackery
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Re: Way to increase Zorro 3 autoconfig address space?

Post by Hanzu »

Belxjander wrote: Is there any way to put the ZorRAM before the mediator or after the pIV?
Calgor may answer if this is possible with 4000T Mediator.

In my case with 4000D Mediators it is not possible beacause MEDIATOR PCI 4000 can only be put to slot silkscreened MEDIATOR PCI SLOT because it is the only slot where PCI ans ZORRO type connectors are horizontally at same line. Also Picasso IV requires full lenght Zorro video slot (or what ever it is called) and there is only bus of that type in Mediator (and proabably any other busboard too). So in 4000D or 4000Di Mediators Mediator card is at the bottom slot and Picasso IV is at top slot (in COMMODORE A4000 DAUGHTER BOARD Picasso IV is physically in bottom slot).
A4000cr Rev D+CSPPC 233/66MHz 060+16MB 50ns+128MB 60ns+Plextor SCSI-3 CDRW+Adaptec SCSI to SATA adapter+OCZ Vertex 2 SSD 90GB+Mediator 4000 MK II+Radeon 9250 256MB +RTL8029+Terratec TTSOLO1-SL VER1.2+ZorRAM 256MB+DF0:-DF3:+Catweasel MK2 Anniversary+Indivision AGA MK II+OS3.9 & OS 4.1. RTL8139D & Terratec TT801-QD for OS3.9 only
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Re: Way to increase Zorro 3 autoconfig address space?

Post by tlosmx »

DarrenHD wrote:Hi Calgor, hopefully one of the programmers can weigh in on your questions. From my observations it's best to put the ZorRAM (if you have one) in the very top zorro slot with other Zorro Cards (like a Deneb) below it.

In my Amiga 4000T I have:

Mediator with Ess Solo-1, Radeon 256MB, RTL 8029 and RTL 8139 (for OS3.9) in that order.

Then I have a Deneb and a ZorRAM, with the ZorRAM being in the Zorro slot closest to the cyberstorm ppc.

Seems to work ok. It is a 128MB ZorRAM though.

I don't have a fully loaded Picasso IV to test.

I mate zoram speed is near 16mb sec
60ns Ram on cyberstorm ppc is near 50 mb sec
I put an ssd on the cyberstormppc with an acard and the speed is from 25 to 29 mbsec more faster of Zoram
I think the fast ram is the Swap on Cyberppc.device and an SSD or Sata HD :)
AmigaOne Xe 933 mhz Radeon 9000pro Samsung 840 SSD
Pegasos2 1266mhz Radeon 9800pro Verbatib Sata3 SSD
Sam 460ex Lite 2gb Ram , Radeon 6670,Toshiba 500gb Sata/HDD
Amiga Cd32 / Amiga 600 / Amiga 500 / Amiga CDtv/ Amiga 4000 / Amiga 1200 /Amiga 2000 and many many many z3 Boards
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Re: Way to increase Zorro 3 autoconfig address space?

Post by danbeaver »

The RAM speeds and SSD speed numbers are correct, but their "standards" are not the same. They use different programs and algorhythms and are not comparable to each other. A U320 HDD will give you around 35 MB/s which is faster than the SSD, but does not compare to RAM speed.
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